Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Right. I know that you have been negatively impacted by your family members alcoholism. I absolutely am. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. As for my part, I have dropped it. They used to believe that high power lines caused brain tumors. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. And its important to try. and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. There just arent that many emotionally healthy churches who even know how to genuinely love sober people, let alone the chemically dependent ones. I qualified my response to Lea, in case you missed it, that most of the alcoholics in my area go to in-patient treatment. Thanks for sharing your journey with us here too. Maybe the congregation in question would give the same love and grace to someone in a pew. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. Then I agree with both of you. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. But I also fully agree with you. 2. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. My extended family has a lot of alcoholics. That is where God met me and my family member. Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. Ashley Madison and then lying, lying, and lying again, never telling the truth about it.Raging at children, taunting them, and trying to erase their mothers memory by destroying and withholding photographs and mementos. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? I dont know where the line is. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. refugee wrote: RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. Ill try hard to not do it again. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Once again, you are a bit strong. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. Again, I realize that was not the point of the original argument. But its a long story, and might strip away my teens anonymity, so I wont go into further detail. In some ways being secular made it somewhat less complicated though no less painful. Max wrote: And some people have been at this for years, apparently, and have developed precision skills in defense of their agenda. I dont get your reasoning on any of this. (let alone applied in practice?). Sick lot. Barbra said that R.C. This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. That was not my post or quote. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. . I was diagnosed with clinical depression at a young age. I doubt I will. What a terrible experience to go through so young. It can happen. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. ALBERT SPROUL OBITUARY SPROUL ALBERT J. SPROUL, age 81 of Willowick. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. ? If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. Maybe he should have let him truly hit bottom, so he would be more motivated to change. The court has set a trial date of June 6, 2017. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). That night, he was literally set free 30 years later, I still communicate with him he is not the alcoholic he feared he would become. And yes, we must continue to pray. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. I, too, thought it was very moving. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. I know the story, but need someone willing to come forward, even anonymously. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. In cases like this, I cant see abandoning the person but the WORST thing to do would be to stand by them and enable their alcoholism. And that blinking smug look that comes with it. I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. Well, I am diabetic (Type 1, specifically) and I do take insulin. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. Some of us have been on the receiving end of RCs lies and manipulations, so its not just speculation. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. throw him out of the house. She did not show that she had no clue. Page 14. and I have a problem with the Bible. The father may be in just as much help as the son from experts who deal with alcoholics and from free groups like Al-Anon, for the family and friends of alcoholism. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Churchill might not be the best example; according to his daughter, he drank less than commonly believed. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). He had never slept through an earthquake before even the small ones. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. Secondly, I am unaware of any Biblical passage that says that having depression is a sin or is worthy of removing someone from fellowship. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. They and their families are all the better for it. Velour wrote: If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. And money. @ Nick Bulbeck: When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. In time, this changes for the better. Our sin is as sinful as is his. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. How does it help children to have an alcoholic parent put out of a church and not gotten into treatment for alcoholics? They could look up names and addresses of mental health professionals or treatment programs in their area. Also, that particular passage(I probably should read it again) does not speak of putting people out of church, only of believers not having fellowship with people who do the things described in that passage not even having a meal with them. People can discuss their thoughts and glaring hypocrisy so that what we are seeing with R.C. Each person arrives at their own solution, in their own time, for their own relationship. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? Haha. throw him out of the house. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. 1. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. In time, this changes for the better. This is the case with RC2. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. Fried chicken yes, but fried chicken livers, no. But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? Anyone who bothers to check out the evidence, and the evidence is overwhelming, will be convinced thats exactly what theyve done his entire life. She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. Serous help? Thanks Refugee for your feedback. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Yes, help the addicted but not at the expense of the children, they are the true innocent party to it all, they suffer the most. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Please see the story that Friend posted today about how their churchs clergy dealt with a woman member who struggled with alcoholism. The authors said said that RC Jnr needs serous treatment which I assume was a typo because they meant he needs serious treatment., Serous means to do with blood. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. I do however agree with everything else youve said. Her boyfriend is still hospitalized with injuries that will cause him lifelong disabilities. Its about Love. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. What Im seeing are a lot of hurting people who trigger very easily over certain things that remind them of past experiences that hurt them. 721 Smith Rd. Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. They were medicating mental illness with alcohol. Our group was a safe place for parents. Once it has reached the stage of addiction, then it is a medical concern since detox can lead to seizures, etc. Its beyond sin. It works some of the time. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). If nothing else, theyll get a breather. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. It works some of the time. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. What you experienced wasnt Matthew 18 church discipline. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. What Jesus commanded of us. My FIL was a dry alcoholic. They know theyre drunk so they slow way down, and this gives them away. You know I wanted to share the gospel with him, go through the 4 spiritual laws, take him down the Romans road, walk him through the gospel of John etc. misunderstood her. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! On the other hand, theres nothing compelling me to take insulin. Barbara Roberts wrote: We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. I liked the way he was thinking and agreed with his conclusions and really liked the way he dealt with the problem and the patient. It wont. Why do so many people not realize they are doing what Paul refers to here in II Cor 11 19-21: For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. If he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program he would be required to make a list of the people he had harmed and to make amends to them, except when do so would injure a person. Dr. R.C. ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. I have had plastic surgery three times. Let me ask you a question, instead, Daisy. and me. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. How can it possibly not be idolatry to not hold accountable leadership in the church? Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr, the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, the church governing body was aware of this issue. RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. Good for him. Sproul, Jr.s adult children. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. I believe it. In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I take Barbara and what she stated. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. It caused him to victim-blame everyone any time they shared some struggle they were going through with him, even though they were not at fault. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. I am so sorry that her parents were killed. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Today that little churchis her home church. Im not sure that we disagree? job loss). I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. I reacted too strongly to some things you said. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. From 1 Cor. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html, Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/. @ Velour: I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I fully expect the 2000 BF&M to be modified in the future to make it more Calvinistic. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Sputter. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack.. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. No need to debate. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. Right. In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. I was looking for that recently. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Through thick and thin just be there, as you spoke of. She received the same love that she would have been given if her disease had been something more socially acceptableand the church helped prevent her from being isolated. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). Thank you. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I would not call this grief. As I started to spend more time alone with God and listen to Where Could I Go, but to the Lord, my heart started to change. I dont know if the various treatment programs ( CR, AA ) create new problems or uncover existing, hidden issues. . I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. 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