Because Virginia's health orders restricted gatherings to fewer than 25 socially-distanced participants, Pittsylvania, Henry, and Patrick County officials did not plan for 2021 high school proms. It expanded Virginia's territory to give the London Company complete control over the upper Chesapeake Bay. Finding the end point of that survey today is not simple. Closing stores is required to change them into holding facilities for people after the military takeover and lockdown comes. Cities in North Carolina Aberdeen, NC Ahoskie, NC Alamance, NC Albemarle, NC Alliance, NC Altamahaw, NC Speed limit reduced on key road at NC Outer Banks. Source: East Carolina University, New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina Choosing the Kentucky River as the eastern edge of the Transylvania purchase allowed the Transylvania Company to avoid conflicts with settlers who purchased land after the 1768 Treaty of Hard Labor, the 1770 Treaty of Lochabar, and post-treaty negotiations moving the line of authorized settlement westward to the Kentucky River. Virginia and North Carolina officials refused to concede that the Transylvania Company had authority over the land purchased from the Cherokee at the Treaty of Sycamore Shoals. The Ohio Company organized in 1747 to speculate in lands near the Forks of the Ohio, beyond the western edge of the Fairfax Grant. In 1728, William Byrd visited with a family that claimed to be free, but he suspected were runaways:9. Walmarts are huge stores. On the frontier itself, some settlers had already carved out farms in some areas such as Sapling Grove (modern-day Bristol) that became off-limits according to the Proclamation Line of 1763. Steep Rock Creek is known as Laurel Creek in Tennessee today (blue indicates how modern stream names correlate to 1749 stream names) 3: 40. in 1629, the charter for Carolana fixed Virginia's southern boundary at the 36 parallel of latitude Decorative floral South Hill Petersburg . He had been a commissioner for Virginia during the 1746 survey of the Fairfax Grant line between the headspring of the Rapidan River to the headspring of the Potomac River, the "back line" that cut straight through the Shenandoah Valley to mark the southwestern edge of Lord Fairfax's territory. Virginia officials did not protest that cession of their western land claim extending to the "Southern seas" because lands west of the Mississippi River had little value to Virginia-based land speculators. Though Virginia and North Carolina agreed not to issue grants of land in the disputed area, Virginians felt that North Carolina was less strict in its compliance with the deal. Their major towns were located north of the Ohio River but who claimed rights to much of the territory on the south side. The Fincastle county seat was placed at the lead mines owned by Col. John Chiswell on the New River (later known as Austinville), much closer than the old Botetourt county seat on the James River.24. Source: Perry-Castaneda Library Map Collection, North Carolina 1796, The Virginia legislature dissolved Fincastle County in 1776. On March 6, they measured the declination of the sun and determined the latitude of Currituck Inlet was 36 31' 13" north of the equator, and started west across the marshes and islands of the Coastal Plain. If someone like a representative of the Loyal Land Company demanded that a squatter pay for use of the land, then at least the squatter had been able to select the best site in the area. 6 cities temporarily converting drinking water disinfectant the modern North Carolina-Virginia-Tennessee border includes a northeast zig-zag between the end of the Fry-Jefferson survey in 1749 and the start of a compromise "diamond line" survey in 1802 There are a total of 4 states bordering South Carolina, including South Carolina to the south, Georgia to the southwest, Tennessee to the west, and Virginia to The 1768 and 1770 treaties with the Cherokee addressed that group's claims to much of the same land south of the Ohio River. 1013x893 / 438 Kb Go to Map. Source: ESRI, ArcGIS Online, Steep Rock Creek on the Fry-Jefferson map may be the stream now called Laurel Creek, which is a tributary of the South Fork of the Holston River. The London officials on the Board of Trade, from across the Atlantic Ocean, advised the governor of Virginia in 1700:4, the northern border of North Carolina was not clearly understood at the start of the 1700's The Treaty of Paris in 1763 ended the Seven Years War/French and Indian War and defined a new western edge for Virginia. If they stop receiving goods from China, they will be fairly empty other than food. Virginia (October 22, 1706), Order by the [Virginia Governor's Council] concerning the North Carolina/Virginia boundary Grew up there and all my family is stlll there. Its first settlers were French Protestants from Virginia. At the Dan River, the Virginia commissioners and surveyors finally spotted the Blue Ridge in the distance. The Carolinians claimed that officials from Princess Anne County (now the City of Virginia Beach) in Virginia were ignoring not only the border when collecting taxes, but even the legitimate existence of Carolina as a separate colony.3, Crow Island is now part of Currituck National Wildlife Refuge If they stop receiving goods from China, they will be fairly empty other than food. Clarifying the Virginia-North Carolina boundary was more important to the Loyal Land Company. By 1776 rebellious Virginia leaders had forced Dunmore out of office and then eliminated the county whose name had honored Lord Dunmore. There are 11 towns in all, each just minutes away from Raleigh. ), Byrd's grant on Dan River In 1745 Virginia colonial officials gave the Greenbrier Company a 100,000 acre land grant in the valley of the Greenbrier River. According to the report, the median home price in the area is $380,000. Greensboro used to be home to MONROE, N.C. (QUEEN CITY NEWS) In ten minutes and with two votes, the leadership changed in the City of Monroe on Tuesday. Source: Library of Congress, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania, New Jersey and North Carolina. Map of Virginia, Maryland, West Virginia and Washington, D.C. 800x542 / 183 Kb Go to Map. That point is not part of the current boundaries between Virginia, North Carolina, or Tennessee. Source: Source: A New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina by Edward Moseley, 1733. After obtaining their grant, members of the Loyal Land Company were particularly interested in clarifying the boundary between Virginia and North Carolina. The survey process required judgment calls using a magnetic compass to determine direction and using a sextant aligned with the sun to determine latitude. Settlers who actually lived on the border may have been less interested in the exact location of boundary lines adopted by officials in Williamsburg or London. Web90 Homes Cornelius, NC City Population: 27,426 This is one of the most beautiful areas in not just North Carolina, but all of the South. Tennessee borders eight other U.S. USA, Kentucky and Virginia to the north, North Carolina to the east, Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia to the south. Speed limit reduced on key road at NC Outer Banks. The Treaty of Sycamore Shoals between the Transylvania Company and the Cherokees involved the 20 million acres between the Kentucky and Cumberland rivers. According to Finance Buzz, Raleigh, North Carolina is one of the best places to start an Airbnb in America. The French were decisively defeated in North America by 1760, but conflict with Native Americans continued for several more years. The Virginia commissioners surmised that Moseley had patented property that could be across the border in Virginia, while the other North Carolina commissioner (John Lawson) would lose some surveying business if the line was marked.8, if the Virginians had prevailed in defining the identity of Weyanoak Creek and used it as the point of beginning for the 1710 boundary survey, Corolla on the Outer Banks would be in Virginia today Blowing Rock, North Carolina. The first cession involved a corrupt arrangement, with members of the North Carolina legislature obtaining massive land grants and then ceding the land contingent upon Congress guaranteeing those private claims. According to Finance Buzz, Raleigh, North Carolina is one of the best places to start an Airbnb in America. The settlements were also located west of all organized county governments in North Carolina that provided land recordation services and official militia protection. The Virginians claimed that Moseley misrepresented the statements in his documentation, that those locals were not honest, and that there were significant conflicts of interest that affected the testimony:7, Currituck Inlet was the starting point for defining the Virginia-North Carolina boundary In 1749, a new survey extended the surveyed Virginia-North Carolina boundary 90 miles further to the west. Source: Library of Congress, A new and accurate chart of the West Indies with the adjacent coasts of North and South America (by Emanuel Bowen, 1720? Sir Robert Heath was unable to capitalize on the gift, but in 1663 King Charles II made another grant of the territory south of Virginia. If so, the end point may well be on a small island located just upstream of the Backbone Rock, a distinctive spur ridge of Holston Mountain that forces the creek to make a sharp bend. The Treaty of Hard Labor defined a new boundary north from the South Carolina border to a site in the Blue Ridge (later named Mount Tryon after the North Carolina governor), then northeast in a straight line to the lead mines of John Chiswell near modern-day Wytheville on I-81, and finally in a straight line northwest to the mouth of the Kanawha River. At the start, the surveyors assessed each other's equipment, agreed on what variances would be appropriate for the magnetic compasses used by different surveyors, and concurred that Steep Rock Creek was 329 miles west of Currituck Inlet. These small mountain towns in NC obviously have lots to offer, and in my opinion Blowing Rock (population 1300, altitude 3500+ feet) is truly amongst the finest. South Carolina. A Virginia resident had obtained an order from a Princess Anne court regarding a lawsuit against a Carolina resident, and based on that court order Virginia officials seized property in Carolina. Source: ESRI, ArcGIS Online. Joshua Fry and Peter Jefferson were Virginia's commissioners and surveyors, while North Carolina appointed William Churton and Daniel Weldon to represent that colony in defining the boundary in 1749. The most prominent member of that effort was William Byrd II, who documented in a highly-opinioned history of the survey what was an adventure for him. Bicycle wheels, feet and hooves now replace rail cars, today allowing everyone to enjoy this wooded, pack-gravel route. Major Cities along I-85 Interstate 85 with info on hotels, maps, directions, landmarks, city guides and more. Source: Library of Congress, Virginia, Marylandia et Carolina: in America septentrionali Brittannorum industria excultae (by Johann Baptist Homann, c.1700). 5 miles. Both Virginia and North Carolina militia responded to Dragging Canoe's attacks, marching to the Holston River and joining in retaliatory raids on Cherokee towns. WebFrom the southern border of Virginia all the way south to Ocracoke Island in North Carolina to Jockey's Ridge State Park is on Carolista Drive in Nags Head at milepost 12 on Highway 158. If the line was located south of the 36 30' latitude line, then Virginia would be enlarged at the expense of North Carolina. North Carolina borders the Atlantic Ocean to the east, Virginia to the north, Tennessee to the west, and Georgia and South Carolina to the south. In the same year, the Loyal Land Company obtained a grant for 800,000 acres. Source: Library of Congress, John Mitchell, A map of the British and French dominions in North America, with the roads, distances, limits, and extent of the settlements. In 2021, nearly 16 million people visited Raleigh. A difference of 21 cents in gas tax is quite a big one. Blowing Rock NC. There are 11 towns in all, each just minutes away from Raleigh. Surveyors found only one stone thought to date from the 1728 survey, on the Dismal Swamp Canal midway between the Atlantic Ocean and the Nottoway River. Those settlements were south of the Virginia boundary as defined by Donelson, and encroached on lands reserved for the Cherokee. Those witnesses swore that the Nottoway River was traditionally known as Weyanoak Creek, so the boundary line should be located at the mouth of the Nottoway River rather than further south. a cedar post was drive into the sand at Currituck to mark the starting point of the Dividing Line survey in 1728 In contrast, Virginia officials vigorously opposed the Proclamation of 1763. It is bordered by Maryland to the northeast, the Atlantic Ocean to the southeast, North Carolina and Tennessee to the south, Kentucky to the west, and West Virginia to the northwest. To avoid conflict with the Greenbrier Company and the Ohio Company, the Loyal Land Company focused its land speculation in the trans-Allegheny territory south of the Ohio River, and away from the valley of the Greenbrier River. That effort started at the Atlantic Ocean, and surveyors went westward 237 miles until reaching the edge of European settlement beyond the Dan River. Using the Pole Star and the first star in the "Tail of the great Bear," they determined the compasses were 3 off true north and they had to survey the line towards 87 West. Since the 1609 charter, the extent of the colony of Virginia had been limited on the north to the 40 line of latitude by the charter for New England (at least west of the Illinois River), and on the south to the 36 30' line of latitude by the 1665 grant to the proprietors of North Carolina. Source: University of North Carolina, "Early Maps of the American South," A Map of the boundary between Virginia and Carolina laid out by His Majesty's order and assent of the Lords Proprietors of Carolina in the year 1728 (by William Mayo, 1728), the adjustment, moving south to the confluence of the Nottoway and Blackwater rivers, still resulted in a boundary located slightly north of the 36 30.5' line of latitude Until 1763 there was no boundary on the western edge of the Virginia colony until reaching the "Southern seas" (Pacific Ocean) - assuming one accepted that in 1609 James I had the authority to determine land ownership in perpetuity on that portion of the North American continent. Which WebCollierville, TN City Population: 48,005 Unlike the City of Germantown, which is essentially a far safer and better-governed extension of a dysfunctional Memphis, Collierville is a bit further east and separate enough from Memphis to give it its own small town Tennessee identity. Thomas Walker, another leading member of the company, explored southwestern Virginia in 1750 beyond the point where the 1749 survey stopped. Joshua Fry and Peter Jefferson surveyed the Virginia-North Carolina border in 1749 from Peters Creek west to "Steep Rock Creek" Walker traveled through Cumberland Gap and identified the high potential for surveying and selling parcels in the Kentucky region. the current Virginia-North Carolina boundary ends near the watershed divide between Valley Creek (in the Tennessee River watershed) and Big Horse Creek (in the New River watershed) WebThe closest hotel is about 6 miles to the south in Garysburg, NC. They also said The road is closed at NC 770. Situated on the states border with Virginia, it rises to an elevation of 4,145ft (1,263m). The 1768 Treaty of Hard Labor did not legitimize the settlers already living southwest of the line on the Holston River. In 1749 that Ohio Company received a grant from the Governor's Council for up to 500,000 acres. Source: North Carolina Maps, A New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina drawn from the Original of Colo. Mosely's (1737). Source: Library of Congress, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania, New Jersey and North Carolina. The two states (no longer "colonies" after 1776) maintained their ownership and agreed to survey their shared state boundary to extend the line, going further west of where Fry and Jefferson had stopped in 1749 and Donelson had stopped in 1771. Boundary with North Carolina, Section 1-305. Donelson's Line marking the boundaries defined in the 1770 Treaty of Lochaber went east-west from the end of the Fry-Jefferson survey to the Holston River, then north to the mouth of the Kanawha River A new & accurate map of the provinces of North & South Carolina, Georgia &c. A new and accurate chart of the West Indies with the adjacent coasts of North and South America, A Map of the boundary between Virginia and Carolina laid out by His Majesty's order and assent of the Lords Proprietors of Carolina in the year 1728, New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina, A New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina drawn from the Original of Colo. Mosely's, A map of the British and French dominions in North America, with the roads, distances, limits, and extent of the settlements. Those initiatives never developed into actual survey projects. Source: University of North Carolina, "Early Maps of the American South," A Map of the boundary between Virginia and Carolina laid out by His Majesty's order and assent of the Lords Proprietors of Carolina in the year 1728 (by William Mayo, 1728), Byrd's party considered returning home by riding north to the headwaters of the James River. Eight years earlier in 1720, two North Carolinians had reported to the Board of Trade in London that the local population was so rough that the territory near Dismal Swamp should be declared part of Virginia in order to establish colonial authority:11, In 1728, William Byrd II also found little reason to respect the inhabitants, commenting:12, The land in the southeastern corner of Virginia/northeastern corner of North Carolina was productive, but inaccessible to shipping from Europe due to the barrier islands. The Transylvania Company hired explorers and surveyors to document their purchase and initiate land sales. 96.4 MILES A.T. The British burned the Gosport Navy Yard and raided throughout Hampton Roads. Existing settlements on the New River, including Ingles Ferry and Dunkard Bottom near modern-day Radford, were placed on the Virginia side of the boundary. Map of Virginia and North Carolina. The colonial population was still too low to create demand for that territory. The estimated population is 294,395. Driven out by Indians about 1754, Baker returned approximately ten years later, bringing Source: North Carolina Maps, A new discription of Carolina by the order of the Lords Proprietors (John Ogilby, ~1671). Source: Discover Kingsport, Maps: Kingsport. if the 1728 surveyors had gone "upon a strait westerly line to Wyonoak creek" and then due west, Virginia would have extended 15 miles further south At the time, North Carolina's settlement was concentrated around Albemarle Sound. If Fry and Jefferson continued further west to Beaverdam Creek rather than stopped at Laurel Creek, then the mountains drawn on their map would correlate with modern Fodderstack Mountain and the Iron Mountains. The Westover manuscripts: containing the history of the dividing line betwixt Virginia and North Carolina: A New and Correct Map of the Province of North Carolina, A new and accurate map of North Carolina in North America, A Compleat map of North-Carolina from an actual survey, A map of the country between Albemarle Sound, and Lake Erie, comprehending the whole of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Pensylvania, with parts of several other of the United States of America, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania, New Jersey and North Carolina, A new map of the western parts of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and North Carolina, The Virginia-North Carolina Border East of Currituck Inlet, Fry, Jefferson, and the NC-VA Border 1749, Avalon Project at Yale Law School: Documents in Law, History and Diplomacy, Section 1-304. Prior to that treaty, London officials had not formally blocked Virginia's claim under the Second Charter of 1609 that the colony extended across the continent to the Pacific Ocean. State: North Carolina County: Rockingham County Metro Area: Greensboro-High Point Metro Area City: Eden The North Carolina surveyors claimed that if the Virginia approach was adopted, the border would move 15 miles south of the 36 30' line of latitude. He then qualified for in-state tuition to attend graduate school at East Carolina, without having to move.31, the Freeman State Line House on Route 13 is bisected by the Virginia-North Carolina boundary The Holston River settlers were now in Washington County, and could go to the county court at Abingdon to officially establish title to land parcels and resolve legal disputes.26, the Transylvania Company spurred Virginia and North Carolina to create new counties west of the Blue Ridge in 1777 In 1629, King Charles I modified the boundaries of Virginia to create the new colony of Carolana. England recognized Spanish authority over the Louisiana Territory, and the Mississippi River became the new western border of Virginia. Source: Library of Congress, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania, New Jersey and North Carolina. a 1671 map sketched out a Virginia-Carolina border running from Currituck past Weyanok Creek to a point on the James River upstream of the confluence with the Rivanna River Laurel Creek on the map is shown as a tributary of the North Fork of the New River, and that would be consisten with Big Horse Creek today. A compleat map of North-Carolina from an actual survey, Virginia, Marylandia et Carolina: in America septentrionali Brittannorum industria excultae, A series of maps to Willard's History of the United States, or, Republic of America, A new discription of Carolina by the order of the Lords Proprietors, An accurate map of North and South Carolina with their Indian frontiers. The sponsors of the prom at Bassett High School in Patrick County took advantage of the state line. Fayetteville Benson Rocky Mount . Shenandoah National Park in the Appalachian Mountains of Virginia. There was no easy water access to ship tobacco or other products from that area to the Hampton Roads, so Virginia settlement expanded to the north up the York, Rappahannock and Potomac rivers. The instructions from the governors had directed that the surveyors use specific natural features (such as the confluence) rather than the mathematical lines of latitude to mark the border. In the 2020 census, the state had a The eastern gentry in Williamsburg, as well as settlers on the frontier, maneuvered to be certain that Virginia could issue reliable title to lands when approving surveys and patents to those land companies. Byrd had William Mayo, one of the Virginia surveyors in 1728, mark the limits of his 20,000 acres where the Dan River crosses into Virginia. after passing through Cumberland Gap (white X) in 1750, Thomas Walker discovered the Loyal Land Company would be able to find rich, level bottomland north of the 36 30' line of latitude (red line) South Carolina. When it comes to a good time, the Raleigh, N.C., area knows no limits. According to the report, the median home price in the area is Super 8 Motel Garysburg - I-95, Exit the modern Virginia-North Carolina border does not include the very last part of the Fry and Jefferson survey, ending at Steep Rock Creek (indicated here as modern Laurel Creek, rather than Beaverdam Creek further west) "Corn rights" (planting corn, or marking trees with a blaze using a hatchet) established a claim. The decision to abandon core traditional territory on the Holston River, especially the sale of Long Island to the Transylvania Company, created major conflict within the Cherokee community. That area was closer to the rival Creek and Choctaw - but if the colonists chose to migrate into the lands above the Cumberland River, they would stay north of the new Cherokee homeland and conflicts might be minimized. I would not want to wander more than about 20 minutes off the I-85/I-77 route. The French and Indian War temporarily limited demand for purchasing lands from any of the land companies with claims in the trans-Allegheny region. The Ohio Company had to recruit 100 people to move onto its lands within seven years. Beaufort is another of our favorite historic towns in Eastern North Carolina. Source: ESRI, ArcGIS Online. South Carolina: North Carolina, Georgia, 2: 41. the 1770 Treaty of Lochaber authorized settlement on lands that were north of the Virginia-North Carolina boundary (extended to Holston River) and east of a line between the Holston River to the mouth of the Kanawha River Fry-Jefferson map showing Virginia-North Carolina boundary, from Atlantic Ocean west to Roanoke River (showing notch where boundary line was adjusted at Nottoway River in 1728) Source: Library of Congress, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania Common Search. The bounties were of particular interest to George Washington, who was one of the gentry anticipating how those grants would be claimed.25, North Carolina assumed the Holston River settlements were in Virginia Georgia. If it had been implemented as envisioned in London, there would have been no need to define the Virginia-North Carolina colonial boundary west of Steep Rock Creek. That provided an easy explanation for the inaccurate location. There were unofficial negotiations by colonial officials with the Cherokees after concurring with the Treaty of Lochaber, reportedly after generous distribution of rum. The boundary, now between states rather than colonies, was stretched west to the Mississippi River but remained unmarked beyond the point where Donelson had stopped in 1771 on the Holston River. That site is now in Backbone Rock Recreation Area, a part of Cherokee National Forest. Source: Library of Congress, A map of the country between Albemarle Sound, and Lake Erie, comprehending the whole of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Pensylvania, with parts of several other of the United States of America (1787). The town was established in 1709 and was first known as Fishtown due to the influential fishing industry. On the southern end, he extended it from the mouth of the St. Johns River (called the St. Matthias River then) to the 29 parallel of latitude, asserting more control over territory in Florida claimed by the Spanish. Shows counties, county seats, and railroads. It is home to 805 miles (1.296 km) of coastline that runs along the Atlantic Ocean. Common Search. Source: Newberry Library, Atlas of Historical County Boundaries. Source: Library of Congress, A map of the British and French dominions in North America, with the roads, distances, limits, and extent of the settlements by John Mitchell (1755), Byrd was so impressed by the quality of the land along the border, he soon obtained a land grant from the proprietors in North Carolina. Nathan Greene, who led American troops to fight against the British back in 1781. The stone was determined to be 600' north of the actual boundary. Otherwise, court filings cost money and formal land purchases could trigger collection of taxes. As the speculators achieved their goal of overcoming the limits in the Proclamation of 1763 through new treaties with Native American tribes in 1768 and 1770, pushing the boundary further west became of greater interest. Below please see all North Carolina cities and towns which are listed in alphabetical order. Source: Google Maps, A map of the most inhabited part of Virginia containing the whole province of Maryland with part of Pensilvania, New Jersey and North Carolina. According to the instructions issued by governors Spotswood and Eden in 1716 for the resolution of the boundary issue, after encountering the Blackwater River the surveyors moved half a mile south to the confluence with the Nottoway River (i.e., the headwaters of the Chowan River) and then began surveying straight to the west again:14, after reaching the Blackwater River, the 1728 surveyors marking the dividing line between Virginia-Carolina moved south to the mouth of the Nottoway River before heading west again Source: University of North Carolina, A Compleat map of North-Carolina from an actual survey (by John Collet, 1770), Virginia provided more local government as well in 1777. The border region was a backwater, where settlers (including runaway slaves) eked out a meager subsistence living from the land and the hogs they raised. Today the western corner of Virginia/North Carolina is located near the watershed divide which separates Big Horse Creek (which drains into the New River) and Valley Creek (which drains into the Holston and ultimately the Tennessee River). Thats tons of opportunities for people to rent out your home during their stay. South. Blocking the Transylvania Company would allow both Virginia and North Carolina to obtain one-time revenue from sale of public land to settlers, and to direct annual taxes from settlers to state-defined county governments. the 1749 survey stopped at Steep Rock Creek Acres between the Kentucky and Cumberland rivers towns in all, each just minutes away from Raleigh Native! As defined by Donelson, and encroached on lands reserved for the inaccurate location site is now Backbone. Military takeover and lockdown comes by 1776 rebellious Virginia leaders had forced Dunmore out of office then... And hooves now replace rail cars, today allowing everyone to enjoy this,... 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