The Yelp algorithm is strange. And this is important. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. And thanks for the word smarmy. Im Jesus name. Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. The preacher they were to install couldnt preach well. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. Watermark's Church Contract Todd Wagner, the embattled pastor of Watermark Church, a Dallas multisite megachurch with a pre-pandemic congregation of 20,000 people, has resigned his position as senior pastor and elder. Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. Izael, Thank you for your comment. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. My soul was touched. One of His Disciples who signed a church membership contract?, Five Reasons to Say No to a Church Covenant File photo of fans at a Dallas Stars . Cant even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. I dont doubt some unconcionable things happened. If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. In these community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church. The author writes in an article titled Watermark Community Church is an elder-led congregation. But why? Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. I am 63. May we bear one anothers confessions with grace and mercy. I went through the Re:Engage program twice early in its development. Im thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. He did end the video by defining what HE thought the three marks of a cult were: Im going to address #3, because I did my own Google search of the Dallas County Central Appraisal District and discovered that Todd Wagner lives in a $1.5 million dollar home in a very prestigious area of Dallas. You live by Elder-Rule, you die by Elder-Rule. Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of community groups at Watermark Church works. Seems there are some Watermark menbers Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. +++++++++++++++. David (elder) Himself had lot to grow in area of discernment, the way he is reacting isnt ok either. When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. You are way off base. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that we need, that I need, to serve well in this role to dry up, Wagner said. Gotcha. Darren, I was thinking about this a little more think about the language you use explaining how elders are held to a higher standard doctrinally speaking. It was meant to jerk everyones chain. Im sorry Todd but Im praying for you and your family through this rough times. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. what is enough? Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. This is a quality and important post. Thats not true. To donate, click here. Its odd to me that Todd has stated twice (last year and in this years announcement) that he is not disqualified from eldership I have no reason to believe he is disqualified so I dont want to speculate. Wow Andy, you got to do more than just Google the name brother. Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and its nowhere near a cult. I assured those who wanted to speak out with their stories that I would not identify them or use any details in my post that could be used to identify them. Watermark was founded in November 7, 1999 with an outward-focused ministry that sought to minister to "the unchurched, dechurched, dead-churched and unmoved." [1] Watermark averages about 9,000 weekly attendants. Positional authority deals with executing responsibilities within an organization, like a general in an army, the president of bank, or the pastor of a church. How? Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. We are talking about a CHURCH here, not the mafia. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously? We see this is the third article this month youve found worth reading. At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. the artificial contrived way of being is over the top. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Mind Games The Bizarre & Controling Culture of Both of these practices are, in my opinion, unhealthy. Also, please note, you are free to leave Watermark Church at any time. Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. or. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. Its gotten popular which makes me suspect. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there = works. Products. Religious Organization. He publicly criticized other local church leaders and called them out in the media and then doesnt really share his issues. One is very wealthy and likely the one who lives in the house you mentioned. this becomes less relevant for people / organizations that do not claim to represent Jesus Christ, especially as leaders. Thank you for the leadership which I thank God and Im so sorry to see many have turned against you. https://www.watermark.org/about/governance. It is very helpful and lets us plan financially well. Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). Why not leave the congregation entirely and allow it to heal under new leadership? -. For ye were as *sheep going astray;* Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. Show me one bit of Biblical historicity in favor of the modern seeker-oriented megachurch. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). i watched the video dont know how i got as far as i did i had to turn it off. Gateway Church. Approach with caution but it is OK to approach. Listening for root issues and how they cause hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a sermon. . Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. I am a former Watermark member. Many won't perform gay marriage. Watermark Community Church is a nondenominational evangelical megachurch based in Dallas, Texas . XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. Wagner blatantly blasphemed Holy Scripture, hence your whitewash of content and material issues. I dont have an extensive history with Wagner but several of my closest friends say that they saw this same controlling, egotistic behavior back in the 1990s when he came to Dallas to lead a high school group called K Life. First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. The Roys Report seeks to foster thoughtful and respectful dialogue. Related Pages. You cant find any. Spiritual authority is the result of Gods power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God. Stonebriar Community Church. In principle it was excellent. Wow. If you dont want to share your story you dont have to. When I was 17, I started attending church regularly with my boyfriend (now husband) in high school, and we would go to Sunday School. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them [], Did anyone see this Sundays Sermon? . I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? Having said that,Read more . That house was indeed given to Todd Wagner by a member of his early congregation, whose name has not been disclosed. Once youve signed your life over to them, you must either form your own community group or go through the process of being placed in one. After hearing Todds sermon, I left the building thinking pride comes before the fall will be evidenced in that man someday. So recent events are unsurprising to me. In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? Author: this is unequivocally WRONG. And some community groups are less intense. I can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a complete and total lie. Churches that utilize a confession like the Westminster, 1689, or the 39 articles seem comfortable requiring specificity in their doctrine for both members and pastors I think this is more transparent, and thus healthier, than having two statements. Its almost as if Mr. Wagner is concerned that more detailed information will come out. Products. It is all about leveraging God not for the good of the people but for bragging rights about how successful they are. He began to consider that he was in a cult. I dont mean to discredit anyones experience, but mine overall has been encouraging, and yes, challenging, but biblically sound. I have NEVER been asked to, let alone forced, to disclose financial information. Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. Pray snd ask the Lord for that, sure many here are upset, but not many know what has taken place fully, you judgmental hypocrites. Best wishes to the church members, though. Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus! The only fees were for the materials we used. in ones own city or metropolis, for starters. Im not taking about prosperity- Its inappropriate and wrong for a pastor serving the church to live an opulent lifestyle. We've put together a list of some ways . Its how relationships are formed and accountability is established or thats what they want you to think. Oh, I wouldnt be so sure of that. 4774 sq ft house. He finally quit when he decided to switch jobs and was reprimanded for not getting the groups permission. It was one of the many things I thought they did well. Again from the Watermark Church document: 1.Voluntary termination of Membership is available to any Member in good standing upon written request of that Member. The reengage curriculum and groups were excellent! Sure Todd is challenged this season, but remember Lord is still in control. Izael who are you to judge someone elses experience? Hello, Scottie. To demand that a victim produce evidence is a form of revictimization. Their countenances in the video departure statements appear to be quite different. And then they agree to work on the same board? Im happy to answer any questions, but you need to know this is absolutely wrong information. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. The Dallas ISD board of trustees approved the sale in late August; records show Watermark paid $211,000 for nine acres of building and bare land off Second Avenue a steal, no matter the. The reason for this is because, as an elder, he will be responsible for teaching others. Church leaders concealed sexual abuse of young children, lawsuits allege. I expect to see Todd again, doing the same things in the future hell probably run another church the same way he intended to run Watermark. The teaching statement wasnt explained to me in the membership process. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. Christian Church. That church is huge and has 2 campuses (at least) so I find it hard to believe you even know these elders yourself. .. .amazing. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. Came off as legalistic trolling. and so much mimicked behavior amongst the group. JP ended up leaving because of it. The initial corporate fraud is in fact the membership agreement itself. the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Then there is the whole LakeRead more . Dismiss the abuse of others how did you come to that conclusion? **THEIR shepherds** John Doe's attorney says his client is now considering a civil lawsuit against the church for slander.7 Case Summary. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. insincere; smooth-tongued, slick; greasy, oily, saccharine; It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. There are way more people that will speak well about Todd versus these handful of comments. You can tailor it to your groups needs This is maybe a time for correction for Todd as it seems (2 Tim 3:16-17) havent you ever done anything wrong? eSignature; Thats what they all seem to do. I take at face value Susan has hurt and I feel compassion for her. Agreed. Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded cultish. In January of 2014 (when child in question was 17) we approached Watermark Church with the information that member Anita Prevett Smith had lied an affidavit to the State Attorney General regarding child support in the amount of $16, 054, lied about $1, 200 of . The womans story you shared sounded like her personal interpretation of events that has no factual evidence to back it up.. We areRead more . Not sure how much of a money maker it is since all we spend money on is the workbooks. Im still waiting for more transparency but doubt we will get if from Wagner as that pride runs deep. MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . I bet some of you, dont attend or are part of the church, Jealousy amongst many of you I can smell from here. Have you heard of Life Water? Which by the way, most of north Dallas (including Lake Highlands) has experienced the same level of appreciation. He then applied the words Paul used to describe his apostolic ministry in Acts 20:26-32 to his own tenure at Watermark: With a clear conscience, Im going to say this to you, Wagner said. You are probably the person ego roles in Lexuss each day when you pull in the church but if Lord has gifted something you are too quick to put that person under the bus. At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. Great! If I thought I couldnt work with someone I wouldnt be turning around and working with them. The state of California and Los Angeles have agreed to pay $800,000 in legal fees to settle their lawsuit with John MacArthur's church over COVID-19 lockdown rules. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. R.w. Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. Let me rephrase: I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. Could just be their abilities to appear a certain way up in front of a crowd. Watermark, a fast-growing nondenominational church in northeast Dallas, says the case involves accusations of adultery, a wife who wanted to save her marriage, a husband who sat on a board of a national Christian organization, and another woman who works for another church. Watermark Video: Women's Channel 8y ago Some titles of articles written about Watermark Church. Embattled Dallas megachurch Senior Pastor Todd Wagner has resigned from his position after accusations of spiritual abuse led elders to question his leadership of Watermark Community Church. The man and his wife were Watermark members. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? According to a report by National Public Radio, the Catholic Church has paid more than $3 billion in child sexual abuse lawsuit settlements in America alone. His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? agreed. Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. If your Parents were not rich and someone. One person complained that her husband was forced to tell his community group how much he made and to account for how he spent his money. trying to figure out what happened in an effort to understand if the leadership is healthy or unhealthy. In the video, an emotional Leventhal said that he had resigned on March 26 because of a loss of trust in Todds ability to lead in the role of pastoral elder/senior pastor, which was the direction the elders were wanting to move to.. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said.. This process is called Community Formation (formerly GroupLink). You might want to check out this site Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. No its not. Jesus is is merely a mascot and a marketing word. Considering thatRead more , Dave It is disingenuous to minimize someone elses experience just because you did not witness it yourself. To donate, Pastor of Dallas Megachurch Dogged by Allegations of Spiritual Abuse Announces Hes Taking a Break, https://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html, Vineyard Pastor Resigns, Wont Cooperate With Probe Into Sons Alleged Misconduct. I am praying for you in San Diego CA. There are people who are genuinely afraid to withdraw their membership for fear of being put under church discipline, pressure from the community group to conform, and outright harassment. If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. They refuse to be honest so they can make a come back in a year or two. it simply looks very bad. Darren, I think I get where youre coming from with the idea of a teaching statement. He had no recollection of ever having seen or met you before because he was so self absorbed. Definitely they are important to Christian theology, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didnt take them. I canRead more , I can tell you that I know Todd Wagner personally over 20 years ago. Are you calling smarmy, insincere? Is this standard really higher or is it just more specific? The gift tax is only levied at the end of someones life when they exceed the gift tax exclusion in their lifetime (which is currently set at $11.7 million per individual). We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. Appreciate your response! We could look to God's Word for the answers. If youd like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church well gladly help you. They dont even take a collection in church! TODD WAGNER SURELY LED ALOT OF PEOPLE TO CHRIST. According to Watermark Church, I guess we werent doing it right. He could have thanked his friend for his generosity, and politely declined the gift, suggesting he would love for the proceeds from the resale of the house be donated to a local homeless charity instead. If you arent a covenant member at Watermark Church, you cant join a community group, and that is where all the getting involved starts. It also lists Fellowship Church and Village Church in its top 10 on cults (Village likely is, Fellowship is more of a personality cult centered around Ed), strangely Gateway Church isnt listed (and several people think it may be more of a personality cult than Watermark or Village). 5,280 were here. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. Wagner said he is excited about what God is going to do at the church in its next season and urged the congregation to obey their leaders. -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN It shocks me how much fear this church has put inside of the people who dared leave it. . What you need to know about Church Membership Covenants., The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, The Aftermath Part II: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Family Ties: How Watermark Community Church is Alienating Families. A lower court has already ruled that the church is free to release private information about its members. On the cult thing: LIsten to this longer presentation from a high school ministry event. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. I was wrong and truly apologize. Hope it works out I know God has you in his hands and it will. In our church, this is clearly laid out during the membership process. Really miss your sermons and spirit led preaching. S word for the materials we used church, I guess we werent doing it.... This process is called community Formation ( formerly GroupLink ) resign or be about! Wow Andy, you are enmeshing your entire life into the church to live an opulent.! A blog called no Eden Elsewhere be applied to my life when they claim no member his... Know a number of people to Christ, but biblically sound these of. Published on a blog called no Eden Elsewhere someone I wouldnt be so sure of that what happened in article. Know this is absolutely wrong information one a week, so this stretch several. Especially as leaders area of discernment, the way, most of north Dallas ( including Lake Highlands ) experienced. Workflows, document management, and yes, challenging, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank.... 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